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	<title>Comments on: [publishing]  Bug off, Bezos. And take your damned bookstore with you.</title>
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	<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/</link>
	<description>Jay Lake&#039;s Official Web Site</description>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/comment-page-1/#comment-9378</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jlake.com/?p=10965#comment-9378</guid>
		<description>AnitaMaria -  Here&#039;s yet another detailed perspective on all this which may of use to you:

http://medlarcomfits.blogspot.com/2010/02/amazon-and-pipeline.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AnitaMaria &#8211;  Here&#8217;s yet another detailed perspective on all this which may of use to you:</p>
<p><a href="http://medlarcomfits.blogspot.com/2010/02/amazon-and-pipeline.html" rel="nofollow">http://medlarcomfits.blogspot.com/2010/02/amazon-and-pipeline.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/comment-page-1/#comment-9373</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jlake.com/?p=10965#comment-9373</guid>
		<description>Why do you think Macmillan&#039;s tactics are wrong?  The $9.99 promise was from Amazon to Kindle buyers, it never had anything to do with the publishers.

See here for a full explanation of the publishing industry&#039;s view of this:

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/012168.html#012168

It&#039;s a lot more nuanced and complex than Amazon&#039;s statements to the Kindle community would have you believe.  They lied to you by omission when they flatly stated that ebook prices would go up.  Macmillan&#039;s proposal was for a price range from $5.99 up.  Amazon didn&#039;t mention that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do you think Macmillan&#8217;s tactics are wrong?  The $9.99 promise was from Amazon to Kindle buyers, it never had anything to do with the publishers.</p>
<p>See here for a full explanation of the publishing industry&#8217;s view of this:</p>
<p><a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/012168.html#012168" rel="nofollow">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/012168.html#012168</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s a lot more nuanced and complex than Amazon&#8217;s statements to the Kindle community would have you believe.  They lied to you by omission when they flatly stated that ebook prices would go up.  Macmillan&#8217;s proposal was for a price range from $5.99 up.  Amazon didn&#8217;t mention that.</p>
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		<title>By: AnitaMaria</title>
		<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/comment-page-1/#comment-9372</link>
		<dc:creator>AnitaMaria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jlake.com/?p=10965#comment-9372</guid>
		<description>It is like Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians are quiet when their people bomb Israel but vocal when Israel retaliates back. I guess, you should stop being quiet like a Palestinian and let MM know that their tactic is not right with you. If more of you MM authors responded to MM, they might decide to negotiate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is like Israelis and Palestinians. The Palestinians are quiet when their people bomb Israel but vocal when Israel retaliates back. I guess, you should stop being quiet like a Palestinian and let MM know that their tactic is not right with you. If more of you MM authors responded to MM, they might decide to negotiate.</p>
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		<title>By: AnitaMaria</title>
		<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/comment-page-1/#comment-9371</link>
		<dc:creator>AnitaMaria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jlake.com/?p=10965#comment-9371</guid>
		<description>What MM and Amazon have is a war. And in war you use all your guns and not only the nickel and dime stuff. If Amazon pulled only the e-books they would be playing right into MM hands. I 100% agree with Amazon tactics as sorry as I am for this author&#039;s hardship</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What MM and Amazon have is a war. And in war you use all your guns and not only the nickel and dime stuff. If Amazon pulled only the e-books they would be playing right into MM hands. I 100% agree with Amazon tactics as sorry as I am for this author&#8217;s hardship</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/comment-page-1/#comment-9039</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jlake.com/?p=10965#comment-9039</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Any trade negotiation that doesn’t end with a deal made is bullying?&lt;/em&gt;

Actually, I went to great pains not to say that.  Amazon pulling the Kindle titles in response to an impasse in ebook pricing negotiations would be unfortunate and even irritating.

Amazon pulling the print book titles, which don&#039;t come under the same contracts or distribution system, is an entirely different manner, and wildly outside the norms of even hardball business negotiation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Any trade negotiation that doesn’t end with a deal made is bullying?</em></p>
<p>Actually, I went to great pains not to say that.  Amazon pulling the Kindle titles in response to an impasse in ebook pricing negotiations would be unfortunate and even irritating.</p>
<p>Amazon pulling the print book titles, which don&#8217;t come under the same contracts or distribution system, is an entirely different manner, and wildly outside the norms of even hardball business negotiation.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/comment-page-1/#comment-9036</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jlake.com/?p=10965#comment-9036</guid>
		<description>Except its not a blockade.  They aren&#039;t preventing Macmillan from doing anything, they simply aren&#039;t dealing with them.  

Any trade negotiation that doesn&#039;t end with a deal made is bullying?  Amazon didn&#039;t like the terms and said fine, for now we won&#039;t do business with you.  As unfortunate as it is for the authors, I just don&#039;t find that bullying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except its not a blockade.  They aren&#8217;t preventing Macmillan from doing anything, they simply aren&#8217;t dealing with them.  </p>
<p>Any trade negotiation that doesn&#8217;t end with a deal made is bullying?  Amazon didn&#8217;t like the terms and said fine, for now we won&#8217;t do business with you.  As unfortunate as it is for the authors, I just don&#8217;t find that bullying.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/comment-page-1/#comment-9011</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jlake.com/?p=10965#comment-9011</guid>
		<description>Hi, and thanks for commenting.  Two things for you to consider, though, and I&#039;m curious what you think of them.

First, every other one of the big six publishers wants and needs to do what Macmillan has done, simply to have continued viability.  Thinking that Macmillan is playing some unique game here is almost certainly an error.  They jumped first, which makes them either the bravest or the most foolish.  But if you as a reader are going to blame Macmillan, pethaps to the point of forgoing their titles, pretty soon you&#039;re going to run out of trade fiction to read.  Which may be fine with you (I don&#039;t know, obviously) bit strikes me as an unfortunate perspective for a reader to adopt, as the majority of fiction published and the vast majority of &#039;name&#039; authors published are in trade from the big six.

Second, Amazon in their letter to the Kindle community cited the high end price point of Macmillan&#039;s proposal, but didn&#039;t cite the low end of $5.99 or talk about the dynamic pricing.  Macmillan states that their proposed model will lower the average costs of ebooks.  This would include older books reaching that much lower pricing point and staying there, which means over time an increasingly large number of ebooks, and soon most Macmillan titles except the very latest, would be well below $9.99.

That second point seems to be an important factor that&#039;s being ignored in the outrage by the Kindle community.  You could assume Macmillan is lying about lower prices, I guess, but *why would they*?  It&#039;s how print books are priced today, as they go from first release hardback to mass market paperback to backlist.  The publisher knows how to manage that, the book buying public knows how it works.  And they want your business as a book buyer, whether ebooks or print.  Why would they lie about this?

So far as supposed corporate lying goes, note that Amazon was quick to inform you of the high side of the Macmillan proposal, but not of the part that benefits you.  That&#039;s lying by omission, and it certainly fanned the rage of the Kindle community quite effectively.  That&#039;s a piece if corporate spin that&#039;s kept you from seeing the long term advantage to Kindle owners of what&#039;s been proposed.

Remember that the $9.99 promise was from Amazon, not the publishers.  As ebook sales grow in market share, that pricing expectation kills publisher&#039;s margins.  There&#039;s a reason hardbacks aren&#039;t priced like paperbacks, and fundamentally it&#039;s so publishers can afford to put out the books in the first place.  I know a lot of Kindle authors will say good riddance to the dead tree dinosaurs, and bring it on, but the big six is where a great deal of the good fiction comes from.  If they gave up, you&#039;d have a lot fewer good books from good authors.  The indie press and the self-publishing world are important, but they don&#039;t have the financial or administrative resources to publish big name authors, and provide the overall quality of editing and production that the trade press does.  Not in significant volumes.
[Sorry for the odd typing, this was done on an iPhone.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, and thanks for commenting.  Two things for you to consider, though, and I&#8217;m curious what you think of them.</p>
<p>First, every other one of the big six publishers wants and needs to do what Macmillan has done, simply to have continued viability.  Thinking that Macmillan is playing some unique game here is almost certainly an error.  They jumped first, which makes them either the bravest or the most foolish.  But if you as a reader are going to blame Macmillan, pethaps to the point of forgoing their titles, pretty soon you&#8217;re going to run out of trade fiction to read.  Which may be fine with you (I don&#8217;t know, obviously) bit strikes me as an unfortunate perspective for a reader to adopt, as the majority of fiction published and the vast majority of &#8216;name&#8217; authors published are in trade from the big six.</p>
<p>Second, Amazon in their letter to the Kindle community cited the high end price point of Macmillan&#8217;s proposal, but didn&#8217;t cite the low end of $5.99 or talk about the dynamic pricing.  Macmillan states that their proposed model will lower the average costs of ebooks.  This would include older books reaching that much lower pricing point and staying there, which means over time an increasingly large number of ebooks, and soon most Macmillan titles except the very latest, would be well below $9.99.</p>
<p>That second point seems to be an important factor that&#8217;s being ignored in the outrage by the Kindle community.  You could assume Macmillan is lying about lower prices, I guess, but *why would they*?  It&#8217;s how print books are priced today, as they go from first release hardback to mass market paperback to backlist.  The publisher knows how to manage that, the book buying public knows how it works.  And they want your business as a book buyer, whether ebooks or print.  Why would they lie about this?</p>
<p>So far as supposed corporate lying goes, note that Amazon was quick to inform you of the high side of the Macmillan proposal, but not of the part that benefits you.  That&#8217;s lying by omission, and it certainly fanned the rage of the Kindle community quite effectively.  That&#8217;s a piece if corporate spin that&#8217;s kept you from seeing the long term advantage to Kindle owners of what&#8217;s been proposed.</p>
<p>Remember that the $9.99 promise was from Amazon, not the publishers.  As ebook sales grow in market share, that pricing expectation kills publisher&#8217;s margins.  There&#8217;s a reason hardbacks aren&#8217;t priced like paperbacks, and fundamentally it&#8217;s so publishers can afford to put out the books in the first place.  I know a lot of Kindle authors will say good riddance to the dead tree dinosaurs, and bring it on, but the big six is where a great deal of the good fiction comes from.  If they gave up, you&#8217;d have a lot fewer good books from good authors.  The indie press and the self-publishing world are important, but they don&#8217;t have the financial or administrative resources to publish big name authors, and provide the overall quality of editing and production that the trade press does.  Not in significant volumes.<br />
[Sorry for the odd typing, this was done on an iPhone.]</p>
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		<title>By: Kooritsuki</title>
		<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/comment-page-1/#comment-9010</link>
		<dc:creator>Kooritsuki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 10:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jlake.com/?p=10965#comment-9010</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it&#039;s fair to put all your blames on Amazon. True they pulled your books, which is not the best tactic, imo, but it&#039;s Macmillan, your publisher, who demanded an unreasonable increase in price that started this whole ordeal.

You&#039;ve mentioned authors have no control over what Macmillan does with business negotiations, true, but since their authors have chose to publish with them, whatever their business decisions are, the authors will be directly associated with it. End of story. Everyone had a choice at one point, they&#039;ve made it. IMO, you and the other authors could have chosen other publishers or to publish your own books. Since instead, the lot chose to publish with Macmillan, over other publishing options, due to all the benefits that comes with it (ie. the contract, the pay, the advertisement and whatever else), whatever repercussions from their chosen publisher&#039;s choice will, naturally, effect them.

Just like if 2 countries are hostile against each other, traveling between the 2 countries for their citizens may be prohibited. It&#039;s just a fact of life. No use to victimize yourself too much.

In addition, I really don&#039;t see the big &quot;loss&quot; for authors even after Amazons pulled their titles. We customers aren&#039;t stupid, if they love your books enough, and Amazon shows that they don&#039;t have it available, we&#039;ll go shop elsewhere. Amazon does not have a monopoly over your DTB. In fact, they don&#039;t even have the monopoly on your ebooks, only the Kindle versions. And since the Kindle uses Mobi files, we can probably find books elsewhere in Mobi format. I do agree that there should be some warning, though, just as a nice gesture.

Obviously though, I can see why authors would place the blame solely on Amazon. Because if Macmillan was able for force Amazon to charge its buyers this unreasonable price of $12.99 - $14.99 for an ebook, which has no physical form and absolutely no resale value, the better off will it be for the authors. Maybe not immediately, but definitely in the future for contract negotiation purposes.

In the end, who looses? Us, the customers. Because as soon as Macmillan &quot;wins,&quot; all other publishers will follow suit, and before we know it, we&#039;ll be paying DTB prices for an ebook with, again, absolutely no resale value. Plus, if Macmillan &quot;wins&quot; this time in forcing the price to $12.99 - $14.99, a couple of years down the road, they are going to force the price up again and again and again. This will never end and we, as the customers will be the ultimate looser.

So I guess my choice will be with my wallet. I will not purchase Macmillan books unless it&#039;s necessary (say for a course or something), because I have no intention of being the ultimate looser in this publisher vs retailer battle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s fair to put all your blames on Amazon. True they pulled your books, which is not the best tactic, imo, but it&#8217;s Macmillan, your publisher, who demanded an unreasonable increase in price that started this whole ordeal.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve mentioned authors have no control over what Macmillan does with business negotiations, true, but since their authors have chose to publish with them, whatever their business decisions are, the authors will be directly associated with it. End of story. Everyone had a choice at one point, they&#8217;ve made it. IMO, you and the other authors could have chosen other publishers or to publish your own books. Since instead, the lot chose to publish with Macmillan, over other publishing options, due to all the benefits that comes with it (ie. the contract, the pay, the advertisement and whatever else), whatever repercussions from their chosen publisher&#8217;s choice will, naturally, effect them.</p>
<p>Just like if 2 countries are hostile against each other, traveling between the 2 countries for their citizens may be prohibited. It&#8217;s just a fact of life. No use to victimize yourself too much.</p>
<p>In addition, I really don&#8217;t see the big &#8220;loss&#8221; for authors even after Amazons pulled their titles. We customers aren&#8217;t stupid, if they love your books enough, and Amazon shows that they don&#8217;t have it available, we&#8217;ll go shop elsewhere. Amazon does not have a monopoly over your DTB. In fact, they don&#8217;t even have the monopoly on your ebooks, only the Kindle versions. And since the Kindle uses Mobi files, we can probably find books elsewhere in Mobi format. I do agree that there should be some warning, though, just as a nice gesture.</p>
<p>Obviously though, I can see why authors would place the blame solely on Amazon. Because if Macmillan was able for force Amazon to charge its buyers this unreasonable price of $12.99 &#8211; $14.99 for an ebook, which has no physical form and absolutely no resale value, the better off will it be for the authors. Maybe not immediately, but definitely in the future for contract negotiation purposes.</p>
<p>In the end, who looses? Us, the customers. Because as soon as Macmillan &#8220;wins,&#8221; all other publishers will follow suit, and before we know it, we&#8217;ll be paying DTB prices for an ebook with, again, absolutely no resale value. Plus, if Macmillan &#8220;wins&#8221; this time in forcing the price to $12.99 &#8211; $14.99, a couple of years down the road, they are going to force the price up again and again and again. This will never end and we, as the customers will be the ultimate looser.</p>
<p>So I guess my choice will be with my wallet. I will not purchase Macmillan books unless it&#8217;s necessary (say for a course or something), because I have no intention of being the ultimate looser in this publisher vs retailer battle.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack S</title>
		<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/comment-page-1/#comment-8993</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 01:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jlake.com/?p=10965#comment-8993</guid>
		<description>&quot;Wouldn’t it make more sense for Macmillan to charge Amazon whatever they want for each title over time, and let Amazon decide how much of a profit (or loss) they want to take by setting their own price to consumers?&quot;

Wow, a comment that makes sense...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Wouldn’t it make more sense for Macmillan to charge Amazon whatever they want for each title over time, and let Amazon decide how much of a profit (or loss) they want to take by setting their own price to consumers?&#8221;</p>
<p>Wow, a comment that makes sense&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Hal O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.jlake.com/2010/01/30/publishing-bug-off-bezos-and-take-your-damned-bookstore-with-you/comment-page-1/#comment-8977</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jlake.com/?p=10965#comment-8977</guid>
		<description>&quot;If the president of a foreign country (Country A) declared war on the mine (Country B)...&quot;

Except that, if you&#039;re going to use this particular analogy, it&#039;s more like:

If Country A sent over a bunch of diplomatic trade representatives to negotiate a completely banal treaty, and Country B unexpectedly launched a naval and aerial blockade of Country A... &quot;I would most likely be very upset with Country B.&quot;

Negotiations are not bullying. (And such an assertion is the saddest commentary on our Brin&#039;s &quot;Dogma of Otherness&quot;-run-wild world I&#039;ve yet to hear.)  Blockades, on the other hand -- which was Amazon&#039;s response to negotiations -- are an internationally recognized act of war.

The other thing is, as far as I can tell, you&#039;re not upset because Amazon hasn&#039;t gored your ox &lt;i&gt;this time&lt;/i&gt;.  The trouble is, Amazon&#039;s behavior has &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;repeatedly&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; been so erratic and disproportional that I expect it&#039;s only a matter of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If the president of a foreign country (Country A) declared war on the mine (Country B)&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Except that, if you&#8217;re going to use this particular analogy, it&#8217;s more like:</p>
<p>If Country A sent over a bunch of diplomatic trade representatives to negotiate a completely banal treaty, and Country B unexpectedly launched a naval and aerial blockade of Country A&#8230; &#8220;I would most likely be very upset with Country B.&#8221;</p>
<p>Negotiations are not bullying. (And such an assertion is the saddest commentary on our Brin&#8217;s &#8220;Dogma of Otherness&#8221;-run-wild world I&#8217;ve yet to hear.)  Blockades, on the other hand &#8212; which was Amazon&#8217;s response to negotiations &#8212; are an internationally recognized act of war.</p>
<p>The other thing is, as far as I can tell, you&#8217;re not upset because Amazon hasn&#8217;t gored your ox <i>this time</i>.  The trouble is, Amazon&#8217;s behavior has <i><b>repeatedly</b></i> been so erratic and disproportional that I expect it&#8217;s only a matter of time.</p>
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